Mike Matei / October 28th, 2015
October 28, 2015 at 3:35 am
October 28, 2015 at 3:39 am
I thought that woman was represented as having gone insane after the accident and she was actually the one killing her friends
October 28, 2015 at 10:50 pm
That’s what I thought too.
October 29, 2015 at 1:16 pm
‘Total recall’ It’s often left to you to choose.
October 28, 2015 at 3:53 am
The original ending is the one with the woman hallucinating about her dead daughter. the other one where she gets hit by a car (just hit) is the american ending and was made to have the possibility of making a Sequel, what they did. the accident at the beginning is important because one of the other Girls (i think the asian looking one) had an affair with her husband…
October 28, 2015 at 3:54 am
i’ve never heard of this one
October 28, 2015 at 4:01 am
yep, the asian looking Girl is the one to blame. shes also to blame for the whole Situation because she led them to an anmapped cave instead the one they were initially going to descent to…and the affair with the husband
October 28, 2015 at 4:02 am
unmapped, of course, maybe not a word either.
October 28, 2015 at 4:05 am
the accidential kill also reveals the affair, dont know exactly how…sorry for being such a smartass but i love this movie. ive seen it minimum 10x.
October 28, 2015 at 4:10 am
maybe the Boys should also give it another try. i find the flick to be very reasonable. i never bothered with the intentions of anyone in the film. guess i have to watch it within the next days, if only to compare my impressions to yours and to refresh the whole Story for me.
October 28, 2015 at 4:11 am
October 28, 2015 at 4:12 am
The woman who accidentally killed her friend also had an affair with the main character’s husband. That is what the dying woman reveals to the main character by giving her the necklace that she ripped off the woman who accidentally stabbed her, it proves the affair. It also proves to the mian character that that same woman left her friend to die. When the main character wanted to kill this woman toward the end it was because of these reasons, not because of a misunderstanding.
October 28, 2015 at 4:17 am
Also, I love this movie but I definitely think the end was messed up.
October 28, 2015 at 4:20 am
You got it mhm.
October 28, 2015 at 4:19 am
You guys looks the same as the dusk til dawm guys on the cover lol
October 28, 2015 at 4:35 am
Another great review
October 28, 2015 at 5:11 am
Another great Neil Marshall film is definitely Dog Soldiers. One of the best werewolf films, or at least one of the funniest.
October 28, 2015 at 6:33 am
I remember reading a review for this film that said that every character in this film had an equivalent in Dog Soldiers. It was basically flaming Neil Marshall for unoriginality. Kinda how every time Akira Toriyama is involved in a new project, be it anime or video game, the main character always kinda looks like Goku.
October 28, 2015 at 6:48 am
I’ve seen both movies quite a few times and never seen many similarities between character in both films. No more than in any movie that has different types.
November 2, 2015 at 10:19 am
I agree. The idea was just so silly, I couldn’t help but share it in this grand discussion of horror films.
October 28, 2015 at 6:23 am
Never knew there were multiple endings either. I remember the one where she got hit by the vehicle. Overall, not a bad movie, but nothing special either.
October 28, 2015 at 6:39 am
The Euro ending is by far the best. They gave it a happier ending for the American cut because US audiences didn’t like the nihilistic ending it originally had. Great music and atmosphere in this film. The monsters are actually scary too. Sequel was awful though!
October 28, 2015 at 7:11 am
Love every aspect of this movie. The backstory, the claustrophobic setting, the minimal use of lighting, the creatures, the ending (UK version), all of it.
There is actually a The Descent: Part 2, but I wont saying anything about it so I don’t spoil it for anyone.
October 28, 2015 at 8:17 am
I watched The Descent twice quite a while ago. It seemed to me what they were going for was this idea that after being trapped and having some accidents, the woman is going crazy little by little from situational hysteria. This is why she gets paranoid and attacks her friend. It also suggests that the mole people are hallucinations, and all the bones and blood in the hole that don’t really make sense logistically, none of it is actually there. Note how the movie kind of gets weirder and less logical as it goes. This interpretation is supported if you accept that the ending is supposed to be a big twist. You think she got safely out, turns out to be just an elaborate fantasy — exactly the kind of state you might experience as you lay dying in a claustrophobic space where you got your friends all killed. So, we watch it build from fear, to hostile paranoia, to hysterical hallucinations, and then to actual psychotic break from reality – which is pretty much how temporary insanity works, and more or less realistic from a psychology perspective given the scenario. Around 2/3rds of the way through, you really can’t trust what you’re seeing anymore at all, just like if you were slowly going crazy. Anyways, that’s just one possible read, but I remember believing that you were supposed to interpret it like that from how it was all set up. I couldn’t really decide whether this storytelling device was cool because it exploited the psychological elements of the story, or lame because these sorts of devices were rampant in movies mid-2000s, so I gave it points for making me think.
October 28, 2015 at 9:00 am
OK guys. You REALLY need to rewatch this. The reason the main character hunts down her friend is not because she thinks she’s a murderer, it’s because she finds the LOCKET and pieces together that her friend was having an affair with her late husband.
She then makes the giant LEAP that her family died because her husband was distracted by guilt while driving; that turns her into a revenge fueled killer.
The reason the creeps show up late in the movie is because she is going through the DESCENT INTO MADNESS. That’s what the whole movie is, that descent. Things get crazier because she IS crazier.
When she sees her daughter and cake at the end, she is completely mad. Only at that point is the descent complete.
November 3, 2015 at 3:01 pm
Your explanation seems by far the most logical one.
The facts that explains the movie title is even more clarifying.
October 28, 2015 at 9:25 am
I always thought this movie was super overrated.
October 28, 2015 at 9:36 am
This was a good one. Thanks, guys.
October 28, 2015 at 9:43 am
Haha don’t compare this movie to The Devil. It doesn’t even have a piece of toast to flip to see if it falls jelly side down.
I actually do agree though that the Descent would of been a lot better without the underground people.
October 28, 2015 at 9:58 am
What are they talking about with getting hit by a truck? I don’t remember that at all. THERES NO FUCKING GETTING HIT BY A TRUCK AT THE END. Mike your memory is way off here.
October 28, 2015 at 10:05 am
James and Mike:
Amazing Monster Madness, just like always!
I would like to suggest for you people to talk about disaster films, like The Towering Inferno or The Poseidon Adventure. This are movies with people on real terrifying situations just like Frozen or The Descent and are real classics.
Greetings from Brazil!
October 28, 2015 at 10:19 am
I really loved this movie because this is a very H.P. Lovecraftish movie. The theme of humans isolated and degenerated for centuries is very common in the Lovecarft Mythos.
October 28, 2015 at 10:36 am
Holy shit, fellas, jesus, if youre going to give us these lazy review entries this year, I am going to have to demand that you at the very least talk unscripted about movies you just watched /rewatched.
October 28, 2015 at 10:46 am
I’m really enjoying these conversations. However, in the future, I’d prefer if both Mike and James re-watched the movie in question shortly before they talk about it in detail.
October 28, 2015 at 10:50 am
there was also a movie around that time called “the cave” which was a pretty damn cool creature feature.
October 28, 2015 at 10:57 am
Holy shit Mike, take a breath.
October 28, 2015 at 11:00 am
James and Mike, if it makes you feel any better, The Hills Have Eyes was allegedly based on a legend in real life about these people who lived in a large cavern that basically ate passers by, like in hills have eyes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axzzKlAvu24 3:42 talks about it. pretty interesting.
October 28, 2015 at 11:11 am
The beginning is really claustrophobic and scary but the monsters completely ruined the movie for me. They’re so lame and uninspired and it becomes the same old zombie/mutant movie with almost no plot.
A similar problem happens to “Pandorum” and “Event Horizon”: good premises ruined by stupid “monsters”. It also happens to “From dusk till dawn” indeed but this one is a much better movie in general and the style remains good even with the monsters.
October 28, 2015 at 11:47 am
She did that at the end because the asian looking woman (dont think shes actually asian mind you) was the one cheating on her husband (who died in the car accident with the kid)
October 28, 2015 at 12:05 pm
We had to analyse this movie in Film Studies last year and write essays and exams about it, and that was pretty much the general consensus of everyone in the class – a great, slow-burning pace going through the caves, but then the Creatures come in and the supernatural element kinda ruins it.
Also, Sarah kills Juno because she was having an affair with Sarah’s husband before he died in the accident. But then in the sequel Juno isn’t dead anyway and they find her, so eh.
October 28, 2015 at 12:13 pm
Funny thing about The Descent it’s actually a throwback to an old HP lovecraft short stories called The Lurking Fear( I believe it predates the time machine Murlocks)
October 28, 2015 at 12:32 pm
Juno did a lot more than accidentally killing her friend. She lead the whole group into this uncharted area, not telling anyone to come search for them if anything went wrong. On top of that, she was having an affair with the main character’s husband before he was killed in the car wreck.
October 28, 2015 at 12:42 pm
James I think you got that revenge part wrong.
I think the authors were playing with an old clichè: good and innocent protagonist turns badass and usually there’s no chance said character may be wrong. So yeah, they tried something different on purpose and in my opinion that’s cool cause isn’t horror supposed to throw you off in every way possible? It looks like it worked on you, you should be happy about it eheh
October 28, 2015 at 12:51 pm
I was surprised how good this film was. Especially how strong and interesting a character they made JUNO, who was really initially perceived as an unfaithful villain.
October 28, 2015 at 12:52 pm
I feel like Until Dawn ripped off this concept. It starts out as something different like a serial killer and even begins slow like the Descent. They even go into cave (not by choice) and find the same creatures. I killed the feel of the game for me like when the creatures in The Descent pop up randomly half way through the movie. But I do agree that it should of just stayed with the whole them trap in the cave. I felt both Until Dawn and The Descent could of been way better if they stayed with what they started with.
October 28, 2015 at 12:56 pm
The descent is in my personal top 10 horror movies. Mainly because of the ending, they knew exactly what to do with the ending. There are 2 endings the US ending and the UK ending. The DVD ending you are talking about is the UK Ending but that is the uncensored director’s cut DVD. The real ending is that she wakes up and is still in the cave, no way out and is going to die. They cut that part in the US version, based on the fact that American movie goers prefer a “happy” ending and didn’t want to make it that . I think that’s a bullshit reason but that’s it they didn’t want the ending be too dark in tone for US audiences.
October 28, 2015 at 2:06 pm
Right on, Koos. I was gonna post this!
At he same time as s movie there was also another that sets in a cave with almost exactly same plot (it’s weird!). It’s called The Cave. And with these two I will say that The Descent is much better. I actually like the movie a lot. But The Cave is one of the worst I’ve ever seen.
October 28, 2015 at 1:11 pm
So….you’re not doing any more Halloween movies for Monster Madness ? Just because it’s bloody and scary, doesn’t mean it’s a halloween movie….
October 28, 2015 at 5:27 pm
Have you recently just started watching Monster Madness? It’s never been about reviewing a “Halloween movie”.
In order to qualify for review, it has to have one thing–a monster. That’s it. Now, whether the movie is something you’d watch during the month of October, that’s something else entirely. I guess it’s all subjective.
October 28, 2015 at 1:17 pm
I’m glad you host these on YouTube also, because these other videos never play smoothly where I can hear clearly.
October 28, 2015 at 1:22 pm
You could say this movie is “decent”.
October 28, 2015 at 1:44 pm
You know what the best part of this review is? Where Mike yet again awkwardly makes some weird comment about “hot chicks.”
October 28, 2015 at 2:09 pm
I think you guys might have missed the double-meaning of the title. “The Descent” refers to both the fact that are cave-diving, but also the main characters “Descent” into madness. That is why the UK ending makes more sense. The main heroine started losing her mind at the start with the suspicion of her husband cheating with her friend, and then the family being killed… By the end of the movie she has gone bat-nuts.
October 28, 2015 at 2:10 pm
Typo, meant to say “the fact that THEY are cave-diving…” doh!
October 28, 2015 at 2:40 pm
For me this review was pretty annoying, too much interruptions and back and forth talking. Where is the point in talking about a movie that you haven’t seen recently? Like this there is so much guessing. Also I don’t geht the references about the “monsters” in the beginning, these are just loose personal interpretations, maybe to show of the movie knowledge?
October 28, 2015 at 3:17 pm
I liked the movie but even though I agree that the part before the monsters was the best for me, I liked the rest too.
Because there aren´t necessary real monsters in that cave, it could be as well just Sarah going really mad.
October 28, 2015 at 3:26 pm
One year, PLEASE talk about Devil, that’d be so great!
October 28, 2015 at 3:37 pm
I thought this movie had more holes in it than Swiss cheese.
October 28, 2015 at 3:42 pm
In the plot.
October 28, 2015 at 3:58 pm
I fuckin’ hate Devil. Shyamalan hasn’t made a good movie. EVER.
October 28, 2015 at 3:59 pm
No, no, you guys are both screwed up on this. In no ending does she get hit by a truck. The original, UK-cut ending of the film is: The main character escapes the cave, gets into the truck (which is NOT on the same road the accident happened in), sees the ghost/hallucination of her dead friend, screams, and then wakes up to find that was only a dream and she is indeed still trapped in the cave.
In the cut released into US theaters, the film simply ends in the truck with the appearance of the ghost, suggesting that the character has escaped but is now traumatized and insane. That’s it.
October 28, 2015 at 4:01 pm
Umm, Mike? Isn’t vertigo a fear of heights movie?
October 28, 2015 at 4:12 pm
If you liked “The Descent”, then check out “Dog Soldiers”. 🙂
October 28, 2015 at 5:02 pm
Dog Soldiers is much better than I thought it would be. That would be a great one for James to review.
October 28, 2015 at 5:01 pm
I actually didn’t like this movie, but you guys made me want to give it another viewing.
October 28, 2015 at 6:45 pm
You guys really need to watch “Funny Games” either the Austrian or American version.it’s a truly horrifying movie on a very realistic way.
October 28, 2015 at 7:17 pm
The only ending worth talking about was the original UK ending which is where Sarah dreams about makingit out of the cave, sees the ghost of Juno in the car then wakes up hallucinating that her daughter was in front of her with a birthday cake… basically, she didn’t get out of the cave – she collapsed from exhaustion on that rock and when she woke up she had pretty much given up and was imagining her daughter and the cake as kind of an escape from what was about to happen to her… the reason for the daughter/cake is that it would have been her daughter’s birthday had she not died in the car crash and she would have been celebrating her next birthday right around the time of the cave incident. The birthday is mentioned at the beginning of the movie and the cave incident happens a year later.
Also, the reason Sarah turns on Juno is because not only did she lie about mortally wounding their friend, Beth (despite it being an accident), but the bracelet that the now dead friend took from Juno had a saying inscribed on it which Sarah’s husband used to say to her a lot – the implication that Juno may have been more than a friend to Sarah’s husband (which is also implied with an awkward moment at the beginning of the movie when he helps Juno out of a raft – a moment Beth witnesses but doesn’t mention to Sarah)
October 28, 2015 at 7:24 pm
Woah. in the ending I saw she got out, got hit by a car and woke up back in the cave surrounded with monsters I think. No daughter or anything like that. It was really grim. I liked it. nobody got out.
October 28, 2015 at 9:45 pm
I saw indeed a very different ending in Europe.
October 28, 2015 at 9:50 pm
The endings of the US and UK versions differ. In the end, Sarah wakes up at the bottom of the cave, crawls out, and makes her way back to the car. When she is driving away, she pulls over and vomits, and when she leans back into the car, she is startled by the ghost of Juno sitting in the passenger seat. The US version cuts to the credits here. In the UK version, this apparition causes Sarah to wake up for real at the bottom of the cave, revealing her escape to be just a dream. She then has a vision of her daughter’s birthday cake, which we see is just her torch. The camera backs out, the voices of the creatures can be heard again and are increasing in strength as they are closing in on her, and the movie ends. This ending was considered “too dark” for US audiences.
October 28, 2015 at 9:51 pm
Also a film with, I’ve heard a different ending was the Vanishing/Spoorloos and the American re-make of The Vanashing.
I really hope that you’ll review the 1988 classic. 😀 It has one of the scariest endings ever in my opinion.
October 28, 2015 at 11:07 pm
I’m surprised no body brought up the extreme similarities between this movie and John Carpenters “The Thing”. Example: All female cast vs All male, trapped in one place, similar movie score, same opening titles font, trust issues etc. When you watch the beginnings of the movies you can clearly see the director got his vision from “The Thing”.
October 28, 2015 at 11:28 pm
I remember seeing The Descent about 2007. I thoroughly enjoyed it, and for a UK horror, it really struck a fearful impactful for me, and became interested in the directing style. The monsters were viscious, and reminded me of one of the episodes from The X-Files. The same director also did this one called Dog Soldiers, which was pretty good, almost like something you’d see on the Sci-Fi channel. Anyway, also check out the sequel to The Descent!
October 28, 2015 at 11:49 pm
Great review another good cave horror movie you should check out is as ubove as below its awesome.
October 29, 2015 at 12:48 am
Hopefully, Halloween isn’t ended like this.
October 29, 2015 at 1:22 am
Yeah, James and Mike, It’s to do with the accidental death, but aslo because the woman was cheating on her husband prior the car accident.
However, I also felt that whole situation was messed up. Why fight her while still being trapped a cave surrounded by CHUDs.
They both would have made it out if it weren’t for that.
October 29, 2015 at 3:06 am
I personally liked this movie a lot. Ima a huge horror movie fan. And don’t get scared that much but watching this movie really had me flexing my bootyhole. From them going into the cave and then shit starts happening. Like the cave in , the most intense part was when they introduced the monsters, to me any ways cause if didn’t even know it was that typ of movie. And that sense I was like wtf !!!!! And the ending that I remeber was she got raped and then made it out the cave…. But for real tho mike more and more is pissing me off every episode he cuts you off to voice his condrictiting opinion , whitch will change he will instantly change when James gives him a certain look, lmfao
October 29, 2015 at 7:24 am
Devil has great story telling though. Don’t let that thing ruin the movie for you!
Mike, let James say something, gee wiz!
October 29, 2015 at 1:17 pm
There’s a movie about high phobia, but it’s a Mel Brook comedy lol.. High Anxiety.
October 29, 2015 at 1:21 pm
And James, there’s another relatively new movie I know about underground fears. As above, so below (I think). It’s good for most part, but there’s a lot of crap in it
October 29, 2015 at 3:09 pm
I know it was mentioned, but ya, you guys missed how the affair reveal played out in the revenge murder in the movie.
October 29, 2015 at 3:10 pm
I actually liked the monsters. I felt they mounted on the already mounting suspense. Imagining that these monsters could exist in real life and the claustrophobia and injuries added to that tension.
October 29, 2015 at 6:19 pm
Well, it’s a good movie anyway…The reason why there’s two ending is simply because in US, it’s not possible to end a movie so depressingly, the hero must survive…
October 29, 2015 at 7:06 pm
love ur reviews guys can u do oculus xD
October 29, 2015 at 7:21 pm
October 30, 2015 at 11:09 am
Does it bother anyone else how much Mike interrupts James? Not just on this one, but EVERY VIDEO!!
November 5, 2015 at 1:09 am
Yep, I think Mike should control this a little bit better. His opinions are also good and interesting, but indeed he interrupts James sometimes.
October 30, 2015 at 11:22 am
review the thing or we riot
October 30, 2015 at 2:10 pm
There was this movie, then there was “The Cave”. Both came out the same year, and were essentially the same. It’s just that the one with the lower budget, that less people heard of, was done a lot better. I just don’t remember which is which.
November 1, 2015 at 2:50 am
So a movie that’s just good for one section. I think I’ll pass. 😛
I love From Dusk til Dawn, though. I think the twist in it is great.
November 2, 2015 at 4:28 am
no mention of the Falmer from Skyrim???
c’mon James you’re a gamer, i’m amazed you didn’t at least toss a hint at that.. lol
November 5, 2015 at 1:04 am
I think we have to make clear the thing about the endings, there are only 2 endings:
-The “official” one: She never leaves the cave, she dreams that she manages to escape, she saw the ghost of her friend in the car, then she wakes up inside the cave, and has a vision of her daughter, while the creatures are approaching.
-The “happy” ending: She leaves the cave, watches the ghost of her friend, but when she wakes up she is still in the car, so in this ending she leaves the cave.(the simply removed the going back to the cave thing, this is explained even in wikipedia) That was the ending needed for the sequel….
And the thing about her friend (Juno), she does not kill her, she wounds her knee and leave her to be killed by the creatures. And why? because Sarah discovered that Juno abandoned the girl that she accidentally killed, and Juno was hiding the truth to the other girls.
Indeed it was too much for the poor Juno character. The thing about Juno being lover of Sarah’s spouse seemed irrelevant to me.
And I’m not buying the theory that a lot of users are saying, that everything is an hallucination of Sarah, and that she is the one who killed the other girls, I think that’s a lot of rubbish.
That theory of “everything was in the mind of the main character” can be applied to almost every horror film.
November 5, 2015 at 1:15 am
Plus Juno was alive in the sequel…..
November 8, 2015 at 10:38 pm
As a matter of fact when the heroin kills the other girl it’s not just to avenge the one who was stabbed by accident, it’s also because she discovered the relation this chick had with her husband and finally has the will to get her revenge in this insane savage mess they got into.
April 30, 2016 at 8:13 am
Never heard of this movie.
May 25, 2016 at 11:57 am
Guys, the whole beginning part with the accident is establishing how close she was with her husband but she later finds out that her friend, Juno, was sleeping with him behind her back. That’s why she killed Juno
June 19, 2016 at 11:23 pm
October 18, 2016 at 4:55 am
Okay I liked your review BUT I hope you see my comment. Keep in mind I’m someone who adores this film and I’ve seen it probably ten times. You missed something. ERY important. Juno not only accidentally killed Sarah’s friend but she also had an affair with her husband (who was killed in the accident). You probably need to rewatch it to understand this but THATS why Sarah kills her. Not because she accidentally kills her friend. Sarah’s husband had a saying he used to say to her (love each day). The pendant that gets ripped off Junos neck by the girl she stabbed had this same saying on it. This is how Sarah finds out. When she sees the pendant and knows Juno had it. Also the ending is perfect. Sarah at this point is just remembering something happy and accepting her fate at the same time. All of her friends are dead and her family is dead. The harsh reality is she’s down in the cave still and she’s going to die. But she doesn’t seem to mind because she will be reunited with her daughter. She’s almost in a catatonic state at the end also almost unaware she is about to die. You can still hear the creatures in the background so you know Sarah will never make it out. Then the film ends with a picture of all the girls before they went into the cave. It’s a harsh ending and a hopeless one but it works.
October 18, 2016 at 5:04 am
Pretend the sequel didn’t happen btw. It uses the shitty American ending which had Sarah make it out. But also. The creatures were great. Because like Mike said it is far fetched but something like them could possibly exist. And also, the movie had to go somewhere. It doesn’t just abruptly go to the creatures. They exhausted the entire “girls stuck in a cave” plot as much as they could. Every horror film does this and this one is no different. Plus the big reveal is amazingly well done. I just don’t see where else the film could’ve gone with them just trying to get out. There had to be some kind of obstacle preventing them from doing so. But again that’s just my opinion.
October 18, 2016 at 5:13 am
So the entire beginning part where the husband and daughter die is NOT pointless. It had to happen for the movie to happen. Sarah’s husband crashed the car because he was distracted. He was feeling guilt for cheating on his wife with Juno. This event caused the girls to want to do something for Sarah and that was explore a cave. These events never would’ve happened had Juno not had an affair with Sarah’s husband. So Sarah’s husband and daughter bein indirectly killed because of Juno is what caused her to turn vengeful and want to punish Juno for what she did. So yes the filmmakers did see their own movie. It was just very well thought out and not everything was force fed to the audience. You have to really pay attention and watch it multiple times. Please do watch this one again. It requires multiple viewings to fully understand. People never do give the film credit where it’s due. It’s in my top ten horror films.
October 25, 2016 at 7:20 am
I feel like The Descent would’ve gotten boring if it was just them in a cave going “what do we do, where do we go?” kinda thing.
October 25, 2016 at 7:23 am
Also, according to IMDb: The endings of the US and UK versions differ. In the end, Sarah wakes up at the bottom of the cave, crawls out, and makes her way back to the car. When she is driving away, she pulls over and vomits, and when she leans back into the car, she is startled by the ghost of Juno sitting in the passenger seat. The US version cuts to the credits here. In the UK version, this apparition causes Sarah to wake up for real at the bottom of the cave, revealing her escape to be just a dream. She then has a vision of her daughter’s birthday cake, which we see is just her torch. The camera backs out, the voices of the creatures can be heard again and are increasing in strength as they are closing in on her, and the movie ends. This ending was considered “too dark” for US audiences.
October 3, 2017 at 4:32 pm
There’s 1 thing that’s enough to make From Dusk Till Dawn great: Salma Hayek.
I’m glad they put the monsters in The Descent, I think it would’ve gotten boring without them.
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